Therapist Confidential #003
00:00:00 Unknown: Welcome back everyone to the Therapist Confidential Podcast. I'm your host, Travis Heath. And today I am really excited to welcome in our guest, Clayton Norman. This conversation, I mean, when Clayton and I have had conversations in the past, I'm never quite sure where it's going to go. That's one of the best parts about those conversations, but it always goes somewhere meaningful. And interesting. What I hope to talk about today a little bit with Clayton is pushing the boundaries of traditional talk therapy. Uh, something that, that he does in really interesting ways. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about the idea of subcultures In therapy, which I think can be really useful. We'll probably also talk some about just his history with therapy, his history with his formalized training, uh, what he found useful and not so useful and also. I think what Clayton does is really, and I use this word not as a pejorative, those of you who know me know when I say weird, that's one of the greatest compliments I can pay. But a lot of his work is weird, it's outside the norm. Clayton can talk some about how he defines the word weird, which blew my mind a few weeks back, but I hope he might also give some advice to folks or at least share some of his wisdom with folks who might be wanting to do something outside of the Traditional therapeutic box as well. So welcome in Clayton, uh, thrilled to have you. Can you tell the people a little bit about you, uh, your, background, your work, anything that feels meaningful to you? Yeah, thanks, Travis. I appreciate you having me here. Um, so I run a private practice in Denver. I graduated with my master's in clinical mental health counseling in 2023, so pretty fresh. part of my practice is really rooted in what I'm calling skate therapy and that's my combination of applying some narrative therapy, some tenets of Adlerian play therapy and skateboarding instruction. That's particularly with adolescents. So that's a big part of my work. I also have an office and, you know, sit with clients in that space too and not skateboard, but my work is also changed recently and that as a kind of response to doing skate therapy, I've actually started working in the professional skateboarding industry with professional skaters too. I'm just offering mental health support. and I also train summer camps and how to make their programs, just like You know, a little bit of a mental health awareness perspective and how to connect kids kind of on a deeper level. My background. Really is a thirteen years in the summer camp industry before becoming a therapist. So now I'm really excited about merging all this together. So yeah, that's a little bit. Of what I do. No, I appreciate it. If it's all right, I'd like to start a little bit with your history and just your history with therapy. This is something you and I have talked about and I think a lot of us have, a lot of us that go on to become therapists have histories with the mental health system in one way or another. I mean, everybody has a history with the mental health system whether they realize it or not. Maybe more formalized and direct than others, but I'm wondering if you'd feel comfortable talking a little bit about your introduction to the mental health system and to therapists and how that's come maybe to shape your approach now as a therapist. Sure. Um, well, my first experience with therapy, while I wouldn't have noted in the moment was very influential into the work that I do now. And I first went to therapy as a teenager. I was fifteen and I was getting in a lot of trouble. I was suspended from public school. I had been running away from home. I had a lot of conflict with my parents. And kind of as a last resort, my parents sent me to therapy. They weren't necessarily believers or advocates in therapy, but it was kind of just like, what are we going to do with this kid? And so I got, I went to therapy. It's fifteen years old. I remember sitting in the waiting room with my parents and seeing the word psychotherapy And these, uh, black decal letters across the therapist, like one of those frosted glass doors you can't see. And it says psychotherapy on it. And I saw, I didn't know anything about what that word meant. And I saw psychotherapy and I turned to my parents and I said, psychotherapy, you think I'm a psycho now? You guys are the psychos. So I completely just, you know. Revolted against that term and then I went into the office and I sat with this therapist and He asked me some questions. I don't remember exactly what they were, but things like, how are you today? And what, what do you feel like is bringing you in? And I just completely mocked him. So I didn't answer anything he said. And I remember this part very specifically. Just my 15-year-old angsty, upset, you know, self, I just imitated him. So he said, how are you doing? And I would say, how are you doing? I just, I just ridiculed him, you know? And then the session never... We didn't, we probably made it about halfway through and he just accepted this isn't going to work. So he said I could go outside. He called in my parents, talked to them for a second and I never went back. So that was my initial, well, I didn't go back until many, many years later as an adult on my own, but that was my initial experience of therapy. Um, very off putting and unhelpful for me. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story. There's a lot of vulnerability in that and also I think a lot of relatability for uh, some folks who might be listening. Now, can you talk about how that experience Maybe helped inform how you do the work you do now. Sure. So when I was in my twenties, I. I worked, um, in a variety of settings with adolescents. I really like, I got into this role of mentoring and And I loved it. I worked in the summer camp industry. I spent a little bit of time working with incarcerated youth. I worked in the public school system. I taught skateboarding lessons. So I was just like picking up kind of seasonal and odd jobs working with kids. And um, eventually I decided that I wanted to be a therapist. Um, and it was kind of like, I felt like I was able to connect with kids really deeply in all these settings in the summer camp world and all this stuff. And then in the therapy space, all of that was gone. It was like, okay, all these cool connective things, like I used to go birdwatching with kids and I love that, um, skateboarding with kids, making art, summer camp, singing songs, doing all this creative stuff. And then there was the therapy space and I felt so equipped to work with kids just like mostly because I loved it. And then and I had, oh, you know, thirteen years of doing it. And then in the therapy space, it was just like. Oh, what do I do here and and it just didn't feel inviting like all those other settings did and and so Um, my thought was like basically just how do I bring some of what I learned and all this other work into this space? And that was kind of the beginning of like Creating the alternative forms of therapy that I do now. Um, and I really recognize that that space was so off. The therapy space was so off putting for me as a teen. And so I just wanted to like, Have something different than the word psychotherapy, right? I wanted to have something that, um, that just felt like I could create an environment where, you know, people or kids actually want to be in, you know. What's your sense of what is often lacking for young people in the therapy space? I think their own creativity and wisdom. So, um, You know, I, I, I speak a lot about subculture and I've talked to you about that a little bit. Um, and when I was in grad school, we spoke a lot about multicultural competency. And for me, my understanding of that at the time was. That culture really applies to somebody's race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality. And yet when I ask young people what really matters to them, often they talk about They're seen. They talk about their peers, their friends, what they like to do for fun, this cool thing they came across. And so I really believe that Oftentimes that, especially for adolescents, is subculture. And that subculture is also culture. It's culture too. It's part of multicultural competency, or it should be. And for me as a kid, while I felt really rejected in many areas of the world, I really didn't feel that way at the skate park. You know, that was my subculture. I felt like I could, I could really, um, be myself there. No one was there to criticize my grades or my haircut or the way I dressed. And so it was just this vibrant place. And I think a lot of young kids are drawn towards these vibrant communities and that that's, that's often their wisdom. That's like them showing up. To a place that is meeting needs that the dominant culture doesn't. And so I want to know what is drawing kids towards those places and whatever that wisdom is, I want that to set the tone and I want that to lead Art therapy sessions. And so that's a little bit of what I think is lacking is just, um, attention to that, to that side of young people in particular. What's your sense of why therapy traditionally might have been or might still be reluctant into welcoming some of, you know, the young person's world? And I mean, You know, we can have conversations and that's one thing, you know, you and I sit across from each other, we have a conversation, there can be value in that. But we'll talk more about the particulars in a moment, but you're actually taking therapy in some instances to the skate park, right? Yeah. Rather than bringing the person into your environment. Like you said, you have an office and all of that, but you're often going to the environment that the young person thrives in that that's their scene. Why do you think therapy traditionally and even maybe still today is so reluctant to engage with those sorts of scenes or subcultures? It's a really good question. Um, I think it's like partly maybe being derived from the medical model or this type of framework that we just And in like seeing problems within people just pathologizing and that we, this is still this idea of fixing rather than kind of being invited in. And I think that that's really what I'm trying to do. Um. And so, um, I don't exactly know why that isn't catching on more. Um, but maybe the young people's just input and voice just hasn't been Brought an into the structure of therapy itself. Like maybe if, um, if we just interviewed more young people, which some people have, there's some studies out there about what works for you in therapy. Usually what young people say is I want someone like me. That's one of the main things that they'll say something like that. Right. Right. I want someone that gets me. And so to do that, we got to get to know them. And the young people aren't just hanging out in the therapy space. You know, they're hanging out in other places in the world. So I just. Want to follow that. So I really know why therapy field hasn't gotten there yet. Um, but I'm interested in trying to help make it happen at least. Yeah, maybe you're in the process of finding that out as you go. Yeah. I definitely want to get into some of the specifics and actually, um, uh, get to the center of some of your practice with young people. But before I do that, I want to ask a couple of questions. So, you had to go through a formalized training program. I'm guessing, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, I'm guessing this formalized training program didn't have like a skating practicum. I mean, it would be amazing if they did, right? Or even a practicum that encouraged, uh, you know, subculture, uh, inviting subculture into the therapeutic space. So I'm wondering before we get into the particulars of your practice, I wonder if you could talk about how you navigated your formalized training, what you took from it. And also maybe, uh, ways that your formalized training encouraged you to look beyond what you're being trained to do. Sure. Um. Probably the main thing that I took with it that still sticks with me to this day. Uh, and I'm still learning about more and more all the time is that my program did a really good job at being systems. So I went to CU Denver, their multicultural social justice based counseling program. And so we, we often look at how our different components of the system that people are living in and the environment that they're living in. Contributing to bring to what they're bringing into therapy. That was really helpful. And I'm still very curious about that. And I'm still learning about that all the time, but that helps me see that. Problems are not specifically within people, but within cultures, within systems, and they influence people. That is, that's been the biggest takeaway from that program. Things that maybe I didn't quite get or that were challenging for me. One, and I think about this a lot is that in a master's program and. Um, not necessarily trying to throw shade on the program, but just something that really shocked me is that I never saw a full session of a contemporary therapy. Session. I never saw that. And I mean, we saw the things like maybe, I think many people are familiar with like, uh, Gloria sessions, right? Fritz Perls and Gloria, Carl Rogers and Gloria, or like. Sure. Um, Salvador Mnuchin and on a stage in the eighties doing family therapy, like things like that. But. But I don't think I ever saw a therapy session that was not over twenty-five years old. And that to me is strange. And so I often I think I created these alternate forms of therapy because I didn't really get so much of a sense of structure of what a therapy session could really look like the possibilities I saw. The historic, you know, therapy sessions, but I, it gave me a lot of room to think and conceptualize what I want a session to look like because I didn't have That many examples. We had a practicum clinic. So I got to see my peers try stuff out for the first time, but I didn't really get to see too much. And so then I just started journaling and writing and thinking, and I was like, oh, I really like these core skills of counseling. But could I do that at the skate park? Could I do that, um, bird watching with a kid? Could, you know, could I do that with, with creating raps and poems or music with kids? So I just started to just, my, my mind just went. Yeah. And then, so your mind... Was, uh, your mind had lots of ideas. And I think this is true of a lot of students actually, is that students, I remember when I was a student, I guess we're always a student, but when I was a formalized graduate student, right? I remember I had lots of ideas. It's one thing, though, to have ideas. It's another thing to take some of those ideas, especially those that might exist on the margins, and start trying to put those into practice. So I'm wondering if you can take me through How you, from your journaling, some of the ideas you had and how you started to actually put those into practice. Because, you know, I imagine if you said, hey, I'm gonna do the skate therapy with folks. Yeah, you might be careful who you would say that sort of thing to, especially if they have more power than you. And, you know, I imagine you could get questions like, well, how do you maintain confidentiality? You just go to a skate park? I mean, there's all of these sorts of, um, Uh, reasons that people might give that such a thing isn't possible. So I'm wondering how you took this from the idea stage into actually beginning to practice it. Great question. So I was in a play therapy class in grad school and, um, we read this book. I think it was Gary Landry at the child centered play therapy. Great book. I got really into it. Just the moment to moment interactions in play therapy. And I was really fascinated by it. And then one thing that I struggled with was that it's typically for clients ages three to twelve And then, you know, we have all forms of talk therapy, which I think best suits people you know a little closer to like seventeen or maybe even older and then there's this really critical time of adolescence where i didn't get i couldn't find anything that was really specifically for that and so in this play therapy class i Was required to do an assignment where I had three play therapy sessions that I ran and I documented them and wrote a paper about it. And my professor, um, who was amazing, uh, allowed us to. Have creative approaches to the assignment like people could instead of writing the paper, make a podcast or something like that. And so I asked her like, could I actually focus on adolescence and do this at a skate park, but still keep these plate therapy core skills. Um, so it's still play therapy, but weave it into skateboarding and use the skate park as a play therapy room instead of, you know, a play therapy room itself. And actually what she said was you can do that, but you need to write a damn good paper. So, uh, she really, um, you know, put the heat on. So I went and I did this. I, I, I had a lot of fun with it. And, um, I felt the pressure to write the good paper and um, then after I wrote it, she really supported it and was really excited about it and actually encouraged me to do a study. Um, like an IRB research study into plate therapy and form skateboarding. And this is a moment that I think really changed my life actually because I'm full of ideas. Like I, I just can come up with crap all the time, but actually executing it is one thing that I might not do. And she really encouraged me and she helped me. You know, launch a, I think the first skateboarding and therapy research study I've ever come across at least. And so, um, we did it, we got, you know, several participants, um, Um, I ran over thirty skateboard play therapy sessions. The paper got published by the Journal of Creativity and Counseling, which, um, after that I was like, oh, I have some momentum here. It's not just an idea that people are going to roll their eyes at or, or something, but I think people are interested and that just kind of evolved into a private practice. So I, I, yes, I have some ideas, but like. Really being like believed in by my professor and supported to that extent was what made it like possible and I'm like totally grateful for that. So just for our listeners, the article is entitled Play Therapy Informed Skateboarding. It is in the Journal of Creativity and Mental Health. I've had the good fortune of reading the paper. Um, one, my, probably my favorite part of the paper is when, um, we were hearing from the young people and also their parents, uh, if memory serves, about like how the experience was for them. And that, that to me, um, speaks volumes because it's one thing for us as therapists to get on our theoretical high horses and be like, Oh, this is why this worked and I know blah, blah, blah. Okay. But young people will tell you the truth about stuff. Any of us that work with young people or have have young people in our homes, our communities, they'll tell you the truth about stuff. And so I thought their experiences in play therapy that they talked about in this research article are pretty remarkable. Also hearing about the parents and what the changes they were seeing. I'm wondering if you can talk about some of the findings from that paper about the impact that this play and form skateboarding has had. Absolutely. What was great was that there was a lot more than I expected. Um, just, you know, I went through the play therapy core script core skills and, um, just ran skate sessions that way, but different things emerge that I didn't anticipate. One of the primary themes of play therapy informed skateboarding or skate therapy that is continually arisen is just this really potent access to metaphors. Like metaphors through skateboarding that can then apply to life off the board. So that is, I get so excited about that. And, um, I'll tell you a story. I, one of the kids that I worked with came to therapy. Mostly because he was getting in a lot of conflict with France. He was feeling bullied. Um, he was... Feeling like he was losing friendships. And when we first met, he talked about it a little bit, but there wasn't There was, it was difficult to really know where to go. He didn't have much to say. I didn't know the questions to ask. So then we would just, we would just skate. And eventually he wanted to learn how to what we call skating bomb hills. So he wanted to go down big hills and gain a lot of speed and learn to work with that. And he, so I was, I was trying to teach him this and we were working with it and he, um, would go down this hill and Just his board would start to shake and he would get what we call speed wobbles where your board starts to shake really rapidly under your feet because you have too much speed and then it just kind of hucks you off. And so he would fall on his knee and elbow pads and you know, he was okay, but he just kept getting speed wobbles and falling. And so one of the therapy skills, the play therapy skills is tracking. Which is really like identifying and noticing and communicating individual movements that the kids are making through their play. It's a way of helping them feel seen and valued and that Even their little moments matter. So I'm tracking while kids are skating. So I'm saying things like, oh, you're carving left. You're carving right. Oh, you're slowing down. Like, I just say this stuff the whole time. It's kind of like a soccer announcer. Um, like, uh. You know, at a game. And so he's doing this and I, and I'm, and I'm mentioning, oh, your knees are locking up a little bit. Your board's moving fast. Oh, you fell saying that over and over again until eventually I'm, I'm suggesting like, what if you tried something a little different and then. He realizes, oh, when I, when I can carve and when I can really lean into the wobbles, I can get through them and I don't fall. So he learns how to do it and he bombs a couple hills and he just carves back and forth, rides through the wobbles, makes it out and he figures it out. Well, a couple sessions later, he's telling me about one of his friends who invited him to a birthday party. It was a sleepover. And He was unsure if he should go. He was feeling reluctant because another friend who he had a conflict with, one of his old best friends, would also be there. And he wasn't sure if, you know, he wanted to see this person and if it would be a good idea. So we started to talk about it. And then I said, you know, what happens when you see this friend or when you think about this friend? What happens for you? He said, well, I get all tense. I just feel weird. Um, you know, kind of shaky. I said, oh, it's almost like Like mental speed wobbles. It's almost, you know, almost like speed wobbles. And he's like, yes, it's just like speed wobbles. And we kind of laughed at this, but he's like, no, really, it's like speed wobbles. And then at one point I said, would it be fair to say that Anxiety is kind of like the speed wobbles of a friendship. And so he really grabbed onto that. He's like, dude, it totally is. And then so I said, you know, I want to remember what you told me last time about how to get through speed wobbles. Can you remind me? He said, yeah, I have to, you know, I have to lean in. I have to carve through it. He said, lean in. What is it like to lean in? Tell me that. And so we kept going and eventually he just identified that if I could really lean into this, that would mean Maybe talking to him, actually. Maybe, maybe I need to say I'm sorry because I said this one thing and all this kind of stuff. Worked through this conflict and he actually practiced it with me. So he sat next to the skate park in the grass and he practiced talking to me. Like, as if I was his friend and he was really, you know, leaning into this experience. And so, um, he did talk to the friend and they ended up making up. So that was one of the, like. Moments of my research study that I was really inspired by. I was like, oh my gosh, maybe this can really be helpful. And I think what made it helpful is that it wasn't me just giving him advice about working through conflict that he figured it out through his own experience of skateboarding. And we teased out what he learned metaphorically. Onto another aspect of his life. So I'm constantly looking for metaphors and there's so many in skateboarding, whether it's You know, balance or, you know, getting up and trying again, all sorts of stuff. So that's, um, that's one thing that I, um, learned through doing the study and there's a few more. Yeah. I really appreciate that example and I love metaphors as well, but I'm struck by something in the story you just shared. I think this can be very useful just to identify metaphors that are experienced near for people, right? Like I use those with regard to sports, if someone's into sports or music or whatever, and that can be really helpful. But I'm really struck by something here that you did. You weren't just talking about the speed wobbles, you actually experienced these alongside him first, like out in the world, right? And then you were talking about them. And I'm wondering about that extra piece because it seems to me that maybe that adds an element, a richness, a something that maybe talk therapy alone doesn't always have. Sure. I think that, you know, at least in skate therapy, it's, it's completely practice based. So I've, I've worked with another adolescent who was having panic attacks. Um, particularly around going to, to like the medical doctors, orthodontists, things like that. Um, and so we actually discuss like, what if we. Practiced getting scared on purpose since we're kind of avoiding it. And that's been really tough. And so we, we, we practice that in skateboarding. So here's a big ramp. This is a little scary. And then as we do it, you know, she'll. Um, say things like, hey, can you, can, can I get some support here? Or I'll notice, you know, notice them taking deep breaths, like things like that. And then I can reflect back. Hey, like I saw that you were able to ask for support when you needed it. You were able to take some deep breaths. You kind of started small and worked your way up. How does that apply to other areas? So we're actually doing everything in real time and then finding. How it can ripple out into the other areas of life. So yeah, it's, it's, it's very practice based. Has there been anything about this practice of skate therapy that surprised you that you may not have expected would happen for people going in? Probably the biggest one has been um, access to stories or narratives that um, I don't think I would have been able to get in like just the clinical setting talking. So, um. You know, for instance, another another story is that I worked with a kid who kind of after after several sessions of trying the same thing on a skateboard, eventually got really upset. Through his skateboard and said, man, I suck. My brother is so good at these and I just suck. So I saw this window of comparing to his brother. And we sat down and I reflected that. I asked a little bit about that and I was able to find out that this was happening in a lot of areas of life where this kid had a Very talented older brother and that he kind of, I think, carried this narrative of my brother's so good, why should I even try? At so many things, but I don't think I would have been able to access that with especially his age if we were just talking or if I was teaching him skills like maybe DBT skills or something, which, you know, can be very helpful. But if I was just teaching, I don't think I would have maybe heard that. But through the frustration in real time, it exposes stories that we are caring about ourselves when we're, um. Like put on the spot to, to, you know, try a trick or whatever it is. Some of those little narratives come out. And so that, that I didn't really expect. Um, and so that's something that I've seen a couple of times is. Access, really like access to narratives. So I think a lot of times in our profession, we're driven so much by theory, which theory is lovely, by the way. I mean, I could talk about theory for days. I think one of the challenges sometimes is to, especially as we're training people in the profession, is how do we translate that theory into practice? You've already done a wonderful job in this conversation illustrating some of the practices that you actually use and how they're effective for you. I want to kind of reverse engineer this and talk a little bit more about theory and maybe, you know, because people listening always want to connect this to theory. You did mention narrative therapy earlier. I think you mentioned like some Adlerian play therapy skills and techniques. Can I ask you to maybe connect some of your theoretical base to the practice-based stories you just shared? Sure. Um, Yeah, you know, Adlerian play therapy has this idea that, um, kids need these things. Could they call the four C's to, um, develop and that is like developed socially and that's that they need to feel connected. Um, courage to pursue relationships, that they count, that they matter, and that they're capable of taking risks. And so, um, what I like to do is just read theory. And when I hear things like that, and I just think, huh, what are all the different settings this could fit? So feeling connected, um, having courage, then like you count and you're capable to me as a skateboarder, those are all so obvious within skateboarding culture already. Like, Like feeling connected to the scene courage to try tricks that you count and belong to the scene that you're capable and you're growing and there's always new ways to challenge yourself. So that was just like obvious. So that was I grabbed onto that really quickly. So what I, what I like to do is just actually just sit and read and study theory. And then as I'm doing it, just take notes. How could this, cause I also. Another side of my practice is, is people laugh at this one, uh, is bird watching in therapy, but I, I do the same things like connected to your natural world. Um, you know, like, so I, that's what I do is I take notes in theory and, and just apply it to as many different settings as I can specifically interest that my clients already have. I have two questions. I want to get into the birdwatching, uh, and I can see why people would chuckle at that. Yeah. Uh, I want to lean into it though. Before I do that, I want to touch a little bit. You mentioned like listening to stories and narrative therapy, selfish. Especially as a narrative therapist, I'm interested in how you see narrative therapy playing into the skate, the skateboarding informed therapy you've talked about. Mm hmm. Um, yeah, well, the part that I'm really drawn to when it comes to narrative therapy is that I think at least in like contemporary narrative therapy, I'm still learning about it because it's, it's one of the theories that has been Um, a little harder for me to actually understand what it even is sometimes. But one thing that I do really like about it and that I think I've learned from Definitely reading some of your work is that the narrative lens can help us see dominant stories and how they impact us as individuals and like. So it helps me in like identifying, um, helps me like ask questions that help clients identify, you know, um, some of the pressures that you're feeling, do they all come from within you or there's some from other places outside? And, and, you know, I weave those questions into skate therapy, but in particularly, I feel like Like this may be a long winded answer, but I think that skate therapy allows us to create new successful stories or stories that actually we feel good about. And so. One term I've been using and I use in the paper that you mentioned is sticky stories. And these are like stories that kids are proud of that stick with them. If you try to trick fifty times and kept falling and eventually landed it, there's a story there. And so I want to sit down and actually put that story into words. So I might ask questions about like, um, you know, you fell fifty times. How are you able to get back up and keep going? What does that say about you? How does this apply to other areas of life? So a lot, you know, extending off what I said about metaphors, but really writing stories in real time that kids can really identify with and feel proud of and then Um, reminding kids of the themes in those stories as they go out into the world. So that, that, to me, that feels narrative. You're, you're, I think you're more versed in narrative, so I'd be curious if that sounds like it fits in narrative. Listen, I don't know what the hell narrative therapy is either, Clayton. You said you're struggling to figure out. I've been struggling for the last twenty years to figure it out. But, um, in terms of how I make sense of this thing called narrative therapy, oh, absolutely. Yeah, that sounds very narrative, and again, what I'm struck by is There's story creation, perhaps counter story creation happening here, but not just through conversation. It's actually happening through action, right? Which it can happen in, you know, office based forms of narrative therapy was often people go out into the world and they take action and they come in and that's fine. There's merit to that. But here, what's exciting to me is it can happen in real time. There's like counter story formation that's happening in real time and then you're sort of reiterating it with people and it becomes like this This, uh, challenge to dominant stories in the child's life, whether those dominant stories are more cultural or whether they're familial, whatever they are, they're actually being challenged in real time through the practice, which is, um, is like pretty. Pretty remarkable to me. It has me thinking like, damn, how can, like, how can I find more ways of doing that in my own practice? Mm-hmm. In a sense with skate therapy, it's almost exposure therapy because it's all like in, in real time doing this stuff. So there's a, there's a quote from one of the kids in the paper that you, you mentioned that he, where he says something like, You know, I never thought that I could walk into the skate park because I something about maybe not being cool enough. And now I know that I am a part of the skate community, you know, and and so that feels like the story of himself and where he belongs. And what he's capable of really shifted over the course of that time. I love that. I could do a whole episode on that. I want to circle back to birdwatching. Because I did want to touch on that some too. Okay. Which I think you're right. People do sort of chuckle or they're like, what the hell is that? But I've listened to you talk a little bit about this and while I get why people chuckle at first, I mean, it does seem like there's, this is another sort of sub-cultural expression of therapy. So I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about birdwatching and how that's worked its way into your therapeutic practice? Absolutely. for me, it's kind of like mindfulness in practice rather than, okay, which is a big part of my life too and informed a lot of, my own therapeutic approach, but. It's it's really like we're going to go out into the world and really just pay deep attention and just see what that's like. And so we were walking really slowly in a world that's so fast paced. Um, or, you know, that's just our culture right now. Birdwatching is such an antidote to that. We're slowing down. We always joke birders can only Walk like fifty yards and, you know, it's a couple hours because we're stopping and really looking at everything. And, um, I have found, and I found this before doing it therapeutically that, um, when I used to lead birdwatching camps that, um, Pausing to admire birds is really regulating for the nervous system where we're appreciating beauty and And so, you know, if I'm talking with, and I've done this, I do this with some adults too. Skate therapy is mostly kids, but I do this with adults too. So we're walking, we're talking, and maybe something's just a little Um, you know, activating for the nervous system. And when we can pause our conversation for a second and be silent and listen and And see, sometimes I've seen some amazing birds on walks with kids and adults. And so we'll pause and it's just this like, wow, look at that. That's beautiful. And we can appreciate and have gratitude for something. Um, this living creature and oftentimes a bird that people never knew existed that's right outside their door. This happens all the time. And then just say, wow. And they calm down and then it's almost like that that idea of titration like people can be more relaxed and then we can ease a little bit more into. The conversation that we were having because our nervous systems are a little more regulated. So it has this really organic, nice pace to it. And I do find that there's something therapeutic About just appreciating beauty and gratitude. And for me, when I'm sitting in the office, you know, like, You can't look at the painting on the wall every few minutes and say, wow, every session, that's beautiful. It's like, you've seen the painting, you know, like, but when you're out there in the world, really looking at birds, like you're really encountering newness. Um, and I just, I found it to be a really regulating practice. So that, that, yeah. I really identify with the piece about how it runs counter to, you know, late stage capitalism, whatever the hell this is that we're living through right now where everything is moving so quickly all the time. Everything has to be production, you're always producing something, right? Keep the economic engine churning, all that stuff. And just the practice of birdwatching in itself, I'm no expert on this at all, but just listening to you talk about it just now, I mean just the practice itself seems like a counter to the way that people are being asked to live their lives in the modern world and it's been my humble observation that There are a lot of afflictions of the modern world. Of course, anxiety, depression, whatever clinical labels have been put on this stuff. The experiences of those things Have existed as long as there's been human beings in one form or another, right? But boy, there's a real particular manifestation in the culture as it exists now. And as you're describing that, I can see how birdwatching is Could very well be for many people an antidote to that. Absolutely. Yeah. Just getting out there alone and birdwatching without adding, you know, therapeutic questions, um, or that therapeutic relationship I think is already really a soothing mindful practice. And, um. And then just adding the therapeutic relationship on top of that, I feel like has been a really helpful for, for clients and, and, and for myself and my experience of being a therapist. It's just, it feels good. You know, I've, I've seen, I want to talk some about this idea of subcultures and therapy a little bit. You've alluded to it, but one thing I've seen some momentum on lately is like walking and talking. You know, and it's like, it's, I'm not trying to mock this practice. I actually think it's a lovely practice. I've engaged in this practice myself. What I'm more trying to, uh, poke a little fun at is the therapeutic establishment that like, Oh, walking and talking is so radical. It's like this radical thing now and people are writing it about and talking, walking and talking. And it's like, well, hey, If this is going to help people consider doing something other than just sit in the office, this is great. But our, our threshold for what's radical is, is pretty low at this point. I raise this because it feels like more and more people are exploring getting outside of the office, right? Wanting to do something outside of the office. And I imagine that subcultures could play a role in that. Not that all subculture has to exist outside of a therapeutic office. Some of it could come into that, right? Right. But I see some energy around people wanting to do things differently and maybe enter the spaces of the people they're serving. And to me, At a very basic level that aligns with this idea of like inviting subculture into therapy that you talked about at the beginning of this conversation. I'm wondering if you could help us define a little bit more like what you see as subculture and then talk a little bit more about why you think it's important to consider that perhaps as a part of the therapeutic process. Great, yeah, I'd like to start by, or I'd like to answer this question by talking about the time that I, um, when I went to The Evergreen State College for my undergrad. And while I was there, I participated in this program called Gateways for Incarcerated Youth. And it's gateways as a program where there was a mentoring relationship between incarcerated youth and some of the college students. At Evergreen, but it was, it was more back and forth. It wasn't like the Evergreen students just mentored the youth, but it was, it was more mutual. We went Um, into the prisons weekly, the college students, and we set up a college class in the prison. And we were, um, we all took turns leading the class, including the incarcerated youth. Um, it was based off of Paula Fieri, popular education style model. And it was an amazing experience. And one thing that happened for me was when I first went into the prison, um, Right away, you could feel the culture of this space. And what I mean is like, I was sitting down in the prison just meeting some of the youth for the first time. And I, I, um, just the way I was sitting, I had my legs crossed and, um, kind of kids and guards alike chuckled at me for the way I was sitting. Um, there was some. I guess what we call the homophobic comments going around and that was a little bit of the culture of the space and um, I learned pretty quickly that like What we might call vulnerability or even just talking about emotions, um, in a sensitive way. It was pretty off limits in this prison and that was the environment. And when one of the incarcerated youth there led, um, a class, he did a, we were, we were studying creative writing and he decided to lead it in, um, hip hop and slam poetry as his medium. Um, invited everyone to bring in raps and poems to the next session. And when everyone was excited about this idea, all these kids in there had poems and raps and. You know, slam poems to share and they um, they went and shared these poems and what I noticed was that the poems were like actually like a real emotional Like sensitivity and vulnerability that kids would rap about crying themselves to sleep every night, um, not being able to see their loved ones. Just like immense pain, really. And instead of being made fun of, like would happen on other days, they were applauded. And they were hugged and people, you know, give them props. And it was the same kids, the same room, the same guards in the room, the same environment. But without rap, that was so off limits to get made fun of. In the context of rap, your emotions are actually celebrated. And to me, I was like, oh my gosh, like the same people inside the container of the subculture, the subculture has its own rules. It has its own norms. That, that aren't of this, the rest of the walls at this place, the rest of the dominant culture. And so I saw subcultures almost when I say wisdom is like. Maybe it's unconscious, but I think of it as like a young person's wisdom, almost like a, like a plant growing towards the sun of like, Hey, like we're moving towards what we need to be healthy. And that's a space where we actually can talk about shit. And we can do that in rap. And so I saw that being such a helpful medium. And so in therapy, You know, my thought is like if a kid is already or an adult is already drawn towards subculture, that's probably somewhere in there if we can find it. There's some wisdom that's drawing them to that. It's serving a purpose. It's probably counter to the rules of the dominant culture. It was for me going to the skate park. Um, and it was meeting needs that, that the dominant culture I was immersed in was not meeting. And so when I talk about bringing subculture into therapy as a form of multicultural competency, it's, you know, identifying where What are you drawn to? What subcultures do you like? And I'm imagining that for most people, they might not even realize it, but there is some wisdom. There's some attempt to meet a need that that subculture is offering, whether it's imagination, freedom of expression, You know, belonging, whatever it is. And so let's let that wisdom be in this session and lead from there. So I learned a lot being in that class with those, with those kids. I love this idea of subculture as a form of multicultural competency. Um, I actually think that might be A more useful competency than some of the competencies that currently exist in a lot of those frames. You know, I, I can really relate as someone who has welcomed in hip hop and rap into the work that I do that it's. It's frankly allowed us to go places that just two people having a conversation wouldn't have allowed us to go. When we welcome in these subcultures and the mediums that might be preferred within them, Boy, can we go to places that we otherwise, I mean, quite literally could not have gone. Like, I experienced kids rap about shit that they could not speak about. And if someone doesn't understand subculture, doesn't understand the medium, that might not make sense because it's like, well, they are speaking about it. No, they're not. They're rapping about it, right? This is a totally different medium and it's welcomed in now a totally different subculture. Because the subculture of two people sitting across from one another having a conversation, which by the way can be lovely and therapeutic, I'm not minimizing that, but I'm just saying that's a very different subculture, that's the subculture of therapy. It's not the subculture of hip hop, right? And so the idea of how we welcome those in and I wanted near the end of our conversation to talk some about this because I'm afraid that People might take away from this conversation if they're not careful. Well, I don't know how to skateboard or I'm not a bird watcher. So why the hell is this useful to me? And I think then they'd miss your larger message. Of course, I'm sure people will reach out to you who, who, Are part of skateboarding culture. Right. And they, or, or do birdwatch. Right. And they want to know how they can bring that into their practice. Sure. But I think the majority of people probably don't do those two things or aren't familiar with those cultures, but I think your message is broader than that. It's about. Subculture as a whole, and how do we invite that into therapy? And I'm wondering, do you have any advice for people who are listening to this and they're like, damn, yes, this makes a lot of sense to me. The spirit of this makes sense. But am I allowed to do this? Like, how do I welcome subculture in? Like, does it respect confidentiality if you're out in the world? I mean, people probably have all these questions and I'm wondering if you have advice for people that might be wanting to try something weird or different. In terms of welcoming subculture into the therapy room. Sure. Um, one thing that I would suggest is just taking as deep of an interest in your client's interest as you can. That's, you know, that's what I try to do. Um, and so, uh, especially working with adolescents, but also with adults, but really this, I really focus on this with adolescents is whatever interest kids have. I want to spend the first couple of sessions, like letting them teach me about it. Um, and so it doesn't matter. I mean, there's been times where a kid's interest has been something like flying drones. I don't know how we're going to make that therapeutic. But I'm going to, but I'm really going to pay deeply attention to them teaching me and show deep interest in their world. And whatever comes out from that, maybe there's something we can grab onto and turn into something more therapeutic down the road. Um, there's things that like, you know, we can do in the office, like you said, like, like rap. Um, I have quite a few clients that have been really interested in Pokemon. Um, okay, so teach me about Pokemon. Wow, so these things, uh, all these Pokemon have these specific set of strengths and they can evolve and they can grow. There's so many metaphors for the growth of the human spirit in that. And we can create our own Pokemon based off ourself with a twelve year old and actually draw them out and make our own cards even. But that are all based off the kid's strengths as they get older. Like these are just examples, but, um, there's, I think there's so much room to let that interest lead. Um, so I would just start there is just taking as deep of an interest. As you can and what your client's interested. And so those are a few examples. Um, and, and, and asking them, how might this be therapeutic? If you don't know, maybe they do actually, you know, maybe they can figure that out. Um, and you also asked about like confidentiality in public. I'm just, I'm just upfront about all that. Like I just talked to kids. I talked to parents. Hey, if we're skateboarding at a public skate park, other people will see us. Typically therapy's a confidential relationship. Uh, I'm not going to tell anybody that we're doing therapy here. This looks like we're hanging out skateboarding. Um, but I, I include that in my confidentiality disclosures. And I have a conversation with that and there's never been a concern so far, but if there is, um, we'll adapt and if, if going outside isn't the right thing, then we'll find a way to do stuff indoors as well. So just, just being authentic and upfront with. People about that is what I do. So you, you threw this in. It was a very small point at the beginning. Uh, but I, I think people before we wrap up might want to hear a little bit about this because I think it's a really cool. Byproduct of the sorts of practices you've been building. So you are now working with some pro skateboard. And, you know, I've learned a little bit about skateboarding culture through you. I didn't grow up in it, right? But this is a world where perhaps mental health hasn't always been at the forefront or easy to talk about. And now here you are sort of bringing those services to the world of pro skateboarding. Can you talk a little bit about how that's come to be in the work you're doing there? Yeah. Um, You know, that came to be, I think, in some ways, unfortunately, out of just a real need for it. Um, and that in skateboarding culture, there is, I think. A lot of natural recklessness that's been a part of it. There's been, uh, I think a lot of people gravitates towards subcultures, like I said, after feeling like they don't fit in with the dominant culture. And I think that's very true with skateboarding. So I think there's. There's a lot of community in skateboarding, but there's a lot of hurt beneath the surface too. And there's a lot of pressure in that industry. Um, you know, if, if you're injured, You can't work. You can't make money. You can be dropped pretty quickly. People age out of that industry very quickly. There's a lot of high pressure, a lot of high stakes. Um, and yet mental health has been, um. You know, somewhat of a taboo topic in many places, but I think in the skate industry, it has been too, uh, and particularly it has been. And, um, that came to be, um, really after, after a professional skateboarder who owns a skateboarding team, um, Made, he's made a little documentary I'd actually recommend that people watch it to get a little bit more exposure of skate culture of subcultures and how subcultures are really a lot of them are like dying for people that understand their subculture to. To come in as therapists. They're looking for therapists who get them. Um, Louie Barletta is his name. He made a, he made a video. Um, you can find it on YouTube. It was put out by, uh, And he talks about why he really feels it's professional skateboarders need all professional companies need a therapist on their staff. And a lot of what he shares in that story, um, is. That his passion is in response to one of his previous pro riders dying of suicide, and that realizing this has happened a lot actually in the skate world, and there's a lot of substance abuse, and that if pro teams Had somebody on their team that was a license, licensed mental health professional that we could actually save lives. And, um, and so he's, he, He was looking for a therapist that also understood skate culture and he came across me really after I published that paper, I think is what did it. Reached out to me and I've been in touch with a few other people in the industry to offer services to people. So, um, came out of a need, let's say, you know. I could, I've written down all these questions. We'll have to do this again at some point, but you know, I want to make sure we respect your time. You've given us about an hour here, which is amazing. Clayton, thank you so much. I'm sure folks, uh, will learn a lot from your experiences and I'm wondering if people want to get ahold of you is, is there a way that they might reach out to you? Sure, um, I do have a Psychology Today page under Clayton Norman. You can find that. Um, also just Googling my name should take you to my website. Or, um, on Instagram it's skate underscore therapy or email is clayton at skate dash therapy dot com. Awesome. Uh, keep doing what you're doing in the world, brother. It's much needed and I appreciate your, your time here today. Thank you. Nice to chat with you. Appreciate it, Travis.
